Difference between revisions of "Talk:Portal:Genealogy"

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= Proposed move =
+
= Proposal to move genealogy advice outside this wiki =
I've been working a bit recently on the gramps wiki in this section (portal) about genealogy. Then I thought "why do we have our own gramps section about genealogy instead of contributing to a common resource.?"
+
I think we should do this, but I don't think we have found the right solution yet. Damn, I thought I had... --[[User:Duncan|DuncanNZ]] 09:33, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
  
So I found these wikis which are not associated with any specific software, which I think is good. What do you think about these? And please add more options for adding content. --[[User:Duncan|DuncanNZ]] 14:51, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
+
== Reasons for the move ==
 +
* Credibility is improved by keeping advice separate from a specific software solution
 +
* The GRAMPS wiki is relatively small and presumably gets few non-GRAMPS users visiting
 +
* Supporting the best existing sites about genealogy reduces duplication of effort
 +
* Involvement in more active (and diverse) websites increases the potential for collaboration and original solutions and thoughts
  
{| border="1"
+
== Current problems with moving ==
 +
* There are no good multilingual sites
 +
* Internal links in this site need to be preserved (so don't actually delete a page, leave a link to the new location)
 +
 
 +
== Wishlist for genealogy advice website ==
 +
(Please sign your wishes so we can discuss them on the email lists)
 +
* Fully multi-lingual (Jerome), --[[User:Duncan|DuncanNZ]] 09:33, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
 +
* The site must use a free license (free to use, modify and distribute) --[[User:Duncan|DuncanNZ]] 09:33, 16 October 2008 (EDT) ([http://help.ubuntu.com/community help.ubuntu.com/community] uses [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ BY-SA] )
 +
* Consensus among wiki editors on which site to use, so we can endorse it for readers as our preferred choice. --[[User:Duncan|DuncanNZ]] 09:33, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
 +
* Site should aggregate from other sites' content, to avoid duplication (what's this called?) --[[User:Duncan|DuncanNZ]] 09:33, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
 +
 
 +
=== Suitable licenses ===
 +
* [http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html GPL] is OK for [http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/ddp-policy/ch-common.en.html Debian]
 +
* [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ BY-SA v3.0] is OK for [http://help.ubuntu.com/community help.ubuntu.com/community Ubuntu], but is it OK for Debian?
 +
* [http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html GFDL] is OK for Debian (but they don't like it) only if there is no [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Free_Documentation_License#Criticism_of_the_GFDL 'invariant text']. They say that in August 2008, but which version are they talking about? See if you can work it out: [http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/ddp-policy/ch-common.en.html Debian Documentation Policy (DRAFT)]
 +
 
 +
=== Unsuitable licenses ===
 +
* Creative Commons Licenses, version 2.0 or 2.5 ([http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/ddp-policy/ch-common.en.html Debian, August 2008])
 +
* Creative Commons BY-NC-SA, preventing commercial use is not 'free' by the Debian definition
 +
 
 +
== Comparison of potential websites ==
 +
The column 'Redistributable with Debian?' is there because Debian has the most restrictive policy on including documentation.
 +
 
 +
{| border="1" class="wikitable sortable" style="text-align: center; font-size: 85%; width: auto; table-layout: fixed;"
 
|-
 
|-
 
! Website
 
! Website
Line 10: Line 37:
 
! Positive points
 
! Positive points
 
! Negative points
 
! Negative points
 +
! Redistributable with Debian?
 
|-
 
|-
| [http://genealogy.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Familypedia, the Genealogy wiki]
+
| [http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Familypedia]
| GFDL
+
| [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ CC-BY-SA]
| +
+
| Has nearly 70,000 articles (and [http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Statistics about 80,000 other pages]); advanced use of categories and templates, using Semantic MediaWiki; [http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Multilingualism accepts any language (actively pursuing that since 2009)]
| -
+
| Genealogy advice and records share the same wiki
 +
| {{yes}} without 'invariant text'
 
|-
 
|-
 
| [http://www.werelate.org/wiki/WeRelate:About WeRelate.org]
 
| [http://www.werelate.org/wiki/WeRelate:About WeRelate.org]
| GFDL
+
| [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ CC-BY-SA] (text)
| +
+
| Claim 2,000,000 entries. By the registered charity [http://www.folg.org/ Foundation for On-Line Genealogy]
| -
+
| Genealogy advice and records share the same wiki
 +
| {{yes}} without 'invariant text'
 
|-
 
|-
| [https://wiki.familysearch.org/en/Main_Page FamilySearch Wiki-Beta Test]
+
| [https://wiki.familysearch.org/en/Main_Page FamilySearch]
| BY-NC-SA
+
| [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/ BY-NC-SA]
| +
+
| FamilySearch Wiki is [only] about genealogical research advice.[https://wiki.familysearch.org/en/The_Vision:_Why_We_Built_FamilySearch_Wiki#Subjects_outside_the_wiki.E2.80.99s_scope (ref)]
| -
+
| [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/us/ BY-NC-SA] means no commercial use.
 +
| {{no}}
 
|-
 
|-
 
| [http://www.genealogywiki.org/ GenealogyWiki.org]
 
| [http://www.genealogywiki.org/ GenealogyWiki.org]
| Unknown licenses
+
| A Creative Commons license, but the license link is dead. I've written to them but had no response. URL unavailable, Feb 2010.
| +
+
| Is only for genealogy information, not articles and thoughts.
| -
+
| Is only for genealogy information, not articles and thoughts.
 +
| {{?}}
 
|-
 
|-
 
-
 
-
Line 35: Line 67:
 
| [http://www.geneawiki.com/index.php/GeneaWiki:Copyright BY-NC-SA]
 
| [http://www.geneawiki.com/index.php/GeneaWiki:Copyright BY-NC-SA]
 
| + in french, very active
 
| + in french, very active
| - in french ...
+
| - most part in french, [http://en.geneawiki.com/index.php/Main_Page english] available
 +
| {{no}}
 +
|-
 +
<!-- ### Genealogy Wikibook ### -->
 +
| <!-- Website -->[http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Genealogy Genealogy Wikibook]
 +
| <!-- License -->[http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ CC-BY-SA]
 +
| <!-- Positive points -->Hierarchic book structure may improve navigation to non-genealogy pages<!--"improve" over what? Any MediaWiki site can have book-like structures and other navigation shortcuts. Practically all the two dozen genealogy pages are subpages in one "book".-->
 +
| <!-- Negative points -->Not very active. Two dozen pages of genealogy advice (mostly in subpage form) and over 38,000 non-genealogical pages share the same wiki
 +
| <!-- Redistributable with Debian? -->{{yes}} without 'invariant text'
 +
|-
 +
<!-- ### TEMPLATE, make a copy before you start ### -->
 +
| <!-- Website -->TEMPLATE[url name]
 +
| <!-- License -->[url license]
 +
| <!-- Positive points -->{{?}}
 +
| <!-- Negative points -->{{?}}
 +
| <!-- Redistributable with Debian? -->{{?}}
 
|-
 
|-
 
|}
 
|}
  
 +
= Archive =
 +
(Move old content down here if it should be kept for reference)
 +
 +
(Bob's question was answered three months ago. Text deleted. --[[User:Duncan|DuncanNZ]] 09:14, 16 October 2008 (EDT))
  
:* What about translations ?
+
I've just spotted the + indicating access to this discussion - should be more obvious!
:* What about internal links ?
+
:ex : [http://gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Events_in_GRAMPS Events in Gramps] or [http://gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=GRAMPS_Glossary GRAMPS' Glossary]
+
--[[User:Romjerome|Romjerome]]
+
  
:The pages you linked there are GRAMPS specific. I don't think they should move, just the generic pages, or pages which with some rewording can be generic. --[[User:Duncan|DuncanNZ]] 07:47, 26 July 2008 (EDT)
+
It seems to me that the Genealogy Wikibook (last in the tabulated list) is the most appropriate place for this portal - perhaps even combined? The purposes appear to be similar.
  
= Bob =
+
The comment "little used" suggests that a few more links would be useful.
Uncertain if this is where to post my question, but - would someone advise me on how to include a page within a GRAMPS book that contains the Gallery items?  Alos, how to include gallery items in a report?
+
Yours sincerely,
  
I have not been able to find this in the documentation.
+
    Theo Tulley.
  
Bob
+
tj.tulley@physics.org
:Please join the [[https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users gramps-users]] email list and ask there. That's the best place to get help. --[[User:Duncan|DuncanNZ]] 14:29, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
+
SFHG Member No: 11619
  
 +
== Portal Genealogy - moving ==
  
== Jerry ==
+
Returning to this - FamilySearch appears to be removed from consideration because it is shown as not redistributable with Debian.
  
Great idea, why duplicate effort.
+
It is however an excellent facility, and I can access it using Firefox in a LinuxMint-6 system.  
  
'''BUT''' what about making it a practice to add documentation of reference notes to the bottom of a section.  Wikipedia does this, but only at the bottom.  I think it makes more sense to make it closest to the subject.  On my personal wiki, where I keep configuration notes, I have made a practice of this.
+
I'm a Newbie in these matters, but I understand that LinuxMint is a derivative of Ubuntu, itself a derivative of Debian. What is required beyond the ability to access it?
  
Example:
+
The title FamilySearch however invites confusion with the (free) Ancestry.com site.
  
''Reference:''
+
Theo Tulley.
  
  [http://www.vanemery.com/Linux/XoverSSH/X-over-SSH2.html X Over SSH2 - A Tutorial]
+
:: The problem is not the accessing (i.e. reading) of the information, but if you can, for example, make a dump of the wiki and distribute it on a CD or as a package, and modify the contents, etc. So it's a matter of licencing, hence the reference to Debian since they have clearly defined lines about what constitutes free documentation and what doesn't. As such being able to be "distributed in Debian" is a way to express that the resource should pass the Debian criteria for free documentation. The FamilySearch site, for example, which is one of the best in terms of practical advices and practices, uses a licence that prohibits commercial pro-profit distribuition, and as such falls short o being considered free documentation, and GRAMPS will not advice the use of a wiki whose content isn't free to use, modify and redistribute. --[[User:Fsmunoz|Fsmunoz]] 14:26, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
  [http://www.jperkins.us/genealogy/ Jerry Perkins' Genealogy]
+
:I tend to do that too. But it depends on how much information you want to have in the reference. A full reference with name, date, website, author takes too much space. --[[User:Duncan|DuncanNZ]] 07:45, 26 July 2008 (EDT)
+

Latest revision as of 09:01, 1 July 2012

Proposal to move genealogy advice outside this wiki

I think we should do this, but I don't think we have found the right solution yet. Damn, I thought I had... --DuncanNZ 09:33, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

Reasons for the move

  • Credibility is improved by keeping advice separate from a specific software solution
  • The GRAMPS wiki is relatively small and presumably gets few non-GRAMPS users visiting
  • Supporting the best existing sites about genealogy reduces duplication of effort
  • Involvement in more active (and diverse) websites increases the potential for collaboration and original solutions and thoughts

Current problems with moving

  • There are no good multilingual sites
  • Internal links in this site need to be preserved (so don't actually delete a page, leave a link to the new location)

Wishlist for genealogy advice website

(Please sign your wishes so we can discuss them on the email lists)

  • Fully multi-lingual (Jerome), --DuncanNZ 09:33, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
  • The site must use a free license (free to use, modify and distribute) --DuncanNZ 09:33, 16 October 2008 (EDT) (help.ubuntu.com/community uses BY-SA )
  • Consensus among wiki editors on which site to use, so we can endorse it for readers as our preferred choice. --DuncanNZ 09:33, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
  • Site should aggregate from other sites' content, to avoid duplication (what's this called?) --DuncanNZ 09:33, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

Suitable licenses

Unsuitable licenses

  • Creative Commons Licenses, version 2.0 or 2.5 (Debian, August 2008)
  • Creative Commons BY-NC-SA, preventing commercial use is not 'free' by the Debian definition

Comparison of potential websites

The column 'Redistributable with Debian?' is there because Debian has the most restrictive policy on including documentation.

-
Website License Positive points Negative points Redistributable with Debian?
Familypedia CC-BY-SA Has nearly 70,000 articles (and about 80,000 other pages); advanced use of categories and templates, using Semantic MediaWiki; accepts any language (actively pursuing that since 2009) Genealogy advice and records share the same wiki Yes without 'invariant text'
WeRelate.org CC-BY-SA (text) Claim 2,000,000 entries. By the registered charity Foundation for On-Line Genealogy Genealogy advice and records share the same wiki Yes without 'invariant text'
FamilySearch BY-NC-SA FamilySearch Wiki is [only] about genealogical research advice.(ref) BY-NC-SA means no commercial use. No
GenealogyWiki.org A Creative Commons license, but the license link is dead. I've written to them but had no response. URL unavailable, Feb 2010. Is only for genealogy information, not articles and thoughts. Is only for genealogy information, not articles and thoughts. ?
GeneaWiki BY-NC-SA + in french, very active - most part in french, english available No
Genealogy Wikibook CC-BY-SA Hierarchic book structure may improve navigation to non-genealogy pages Not very active. Two dozen pages of genealogy advice (mostly in subpage form) and over 38,000 non-genealogical pages share the same wiki Yes without 'invariant text'
TEMPLATE[url name] [url license] ? ? ?

Archive

(Move old content down here if it should be kept for reference)

(Bob's question was answered three months ago. Text deleted. --DuncanNZ 09:14, 16 October 2008 (EDT))

I've just spotted the + indicating access to this discussion - should be more obvious!

It seems to me that the Genealogy Wikibook (last in the tabulated list) is the most appropriate place for this portal - perhaps even combined? The purposes appear to be similar.

The comment "little used" suggests that a few more links would be useful. Yours sincerely,

   Theo Tulley.

tj.tulley@physics.org SFHG Member No: 11619

Portal Genealogy - moving

Returning to this - FamilySearch appears to be removed from consideration because it is shown as not redistributable with Debian.

It is however an excellent facility, and I can access it using Firefox in a LinuxMint-6 system.

I'm a Newbie in these matters, but I understand that LinuxMint is a derivative of Ubuntu, itself a derivative of Debian. What is required beyond the ability to access it?

The title FamilySearch however invites confusion with the (free) Ancestry.com site.

Theo Tulley.

The problem is not the accessing (i.e. reading) of the information, but if you can, for example, make a dump of the wiki and distribute it on a CD or as a package, and modify the contents, etc. So it's a matter of licencing, hence the reference to Debian since they have clearly defined lines about what constitutes free documentation and what doesn't. As such being able to be "distributed in Debian" is a way to express that the resource should pass the Debian criteria for free documentation. The FamilySearch site, for example, which is one of the best in terms of practical advices and practices, uses a licence that prohibits commercial pro-profit distribuition, and as such falls short o being considered free documentation, and GRAMPS will not advice the use of a wiki whose content isn't free to use, modify and redistribute. --Fsmunoz 14:26, 16 September 2009 (UTC)